Dr. D and I talked about how I can usually set boundaries with men very easily but it’s really hard to do so with women. Had Fife Junior spoken to me the way his sister did I would have cursed and spit enough to make a high ranking old sailor blush. Because it was a woman I held back. I didn’t trust that I could give back what she gave to me without serious consequences.
I fear setting boundaries with women because I’m concerned about the consequences of doing so. Will she become angry with me and act out? Will she deny my needs in a passive aggressive manner? Will she set out on a campaign of lets make Austin’s life miserable? I don’t know, so for me it’s easier to not be so straight forward with women when it comes to my personal boundaries.
I was asked if Princess Fife would ever get physical with me. She has never touched me but she is a fighter. I do not put it past her to get physical which is why when she began cursing and acting stupid Morton popped out. But see Morton doesn’t like hitting or fighting. He will protect us but he doesn’t like to and he certainly doesn’t like to hit a female even when she jumps on us with intent to harm. I was then asked if Morton would beat her down or simply restrain her. He feels restraining her doesn’t send a strong enough message. Beating her down sends more of a message but a nice punch in the face that knocks her on her ass is enough to say, “Let’s not go down this road.” However, if her brother put his hands on me I’m not sure I’d hold back. Would it matter to me that I hit him with all my might? I doubt it. If he had the nerve to hit me I have no choice but to defend myself. But with a woman the issues of protecting myself are stronger and have to do with self worth.
Who do I think I am to hit a female..someone higher up on the food chain than myself? It isn’t Princess Fife that’s the issue it’s her gender. Why do I think I can stand up to a woman as if I have some right to deny myself to them? Had Princess Fife put her hands on me or if she ever decides to there will be a lot of emotional fall out for me. Who do I think I am to put my hands on a woman and make her feel the humiliation I felt as I slam my fist in her face? Now she’ll feel the same fear and embarrassment and anger and self loathing as I did when I got up off the floor after being beaten by my mother. All reason says a person has the right to protect his or herself if attacked. I know this on an intellectual level. But my head says, “You can’t put someone else through that. You can’t put a woman through that because you have no right to.” Part of it is I just don’t’ want to hurt anyone but another part is I don’t think I’m dirty so what business do I have trying to deny another woman what she wants when she is higher on the food chain than me?
When it comes to men I can say no. When it comes to men if they attack me physically I’ll go punch for punch. With both men and women if there is a sexual attack I just freeze. When it comes to trusting them or asserting myself on major issues they’re on opposite sides of the room. When I walked past Dr. D to leave at the end of the session I thought for sure he was going to smack me. I held my breath. He didn’t do it.
As Dr. D and I talked I sketched this. I’m trying to keep all my art therapy pieces together which is why they’re now on the art therapy blog.
J of A
Two Extremes of Trust - Thursday, November 20, 2008
Boy I really resonated with this post. I have always had much more trouble setting boundaries with women than men although this has gotten lots better over time.
I used to think it was “all my problem” but as I’ve gotten older and wiser I see that there are good reasons that I am cautious about how I do this with women. My experience is that men will get mad but accept your boundary. Women will get mad and find some other way to take it out of you without you even knowing they got pissed off. They hit back socially or in other ways that are very passive aggressive. It is a much more tricky thing because so much of it is hidden and denied.
I would say I have been hurt far more by women than by men in my life because of these kinds of situations. I finally have good female friends I trust but it’s taken decades, and all of them have been through the same experiences with other women. There is something to be said for avoiding or deflecting another woman rather than confront when you aren’t really sure how it is going to go down. It can be the most self protective thing you can do in a lot of situations.
Interesting. You seem to say you didn’t set boundaries or respond aggressively enough to Princess. But when I read your last post I was set to comment “Way to go on setting boundaries.” I think it takes a stronger person to stay in control and respond calmly and rationally - which you did. Sometimes the stronger person is wiser in backing away. Not to say you shoudln’t kick some booty if she comes after you. She is DEFINITELY not “higher up on the food chain” than you.
Women have been oppressed and kept in background roles forever. Even though we’ve been kept in the back we still have the human need for justice. So what is it we must do to seek some sort of justice? We act out in passive aggressive ways. Is it because we are women? No, it’s because of our position in society. It is expected of men to be violent. No one bats and eye when it happens but when a woman does it it’s all over the news. How does a women keep her standing but still seek justice? Passive aggression and covert ways of getting back or even. Men use machine guns, women use poison.
Take into account also that many, many women are victims of sexual assault as well as abuse in their adulthood. Power was taken early but power is still needed. How do they take that back? Passive aggression. Don’t face the person who offended, go behind their back and still keep a sense of power without face to face confrontation. That is why I think we see more passive aggression in women…a history of loss of power and personal control over their well being.
My own fear and concern with setting boundaries comes from my mother. I haven’t had a lot of experiences with other women who have hurt me. I’m too afraid of them to get so close that they can. I can stand and bluff my way through an argument but deep down inside I think to myself, you worthless piece of shit why would you ever speak to her like that when you know you are not her equal? Whose equal? My mother’s because for me each woman I’ve seen face to face and hold a face to face friendship with is my mother. Each woman at the grocery store I lay eyes on is my mother. Therefore each woman I lay my eyes on has something over me that I feel makes me less than them. I can bluff and act like I’m equal to them but in my heart of hearts I feel less than. So who I am to overstep their boundaries and protect myself verbally or physically? That is what is in my heart but it’s not what comes out of my mouth when confronted.
If I offend a man I’ll apologize and let them know I didn’t mean to. If I offend a woman my eyes lower, my head lowers. I try not to but it happens. This is exactly how I was instructed to address my mother, do not make eye contact with her, respect her as my superior and owner. “You are not and will never by my equal. You do not make eye contact with me. Stay in your place.” I have to make a conscious effort to make eye contact with a woman I’ve offended. I immediately feel bad for stepping out of “my place.”
I know…I know that this is not correct…part of me knows I’m equal to all women but just try and silence that tape that says I’m not. I’m working on it though……
Austin
Austin, this may seem like a strange (or maybe I mean “dumb”) question, but if you saw one woman hit another, what would you feel about that?
This is a really interesting post. For me, if either a man or woman hits me or is physically violent, I go at them full throttle — because I fear the consequences if I don’t, if I appear to be weak. But add any sexual overtone to the violence and I freeze in shame. I not only appear to be weak, I am weak. It’s frustrating as hell but it’s such a strong reaction I’ve never been able to think my way past or out of it. Luckily it hasn’t come up all that often.
I might need a little more information about this chick fight. Will there be mud involved? If there’s mud I may not feel compelled to assist the one getting beaten up but if there’s no mud involved and it’s just two idiots throwing punches like they’re on the playground I’m going to have to try and get them to stop. My general rule is, never break up a chick fight.
Really though, when it comes to hitting another woman I’m the one with the problem. Two women fighting doesn’t involve my issues unless of course they decide to start throwing punches at me. That’s when issues of worth come in.
I feel really, really stupid saying all of this but it is true, my mother taught me well to never consider myself equal. Since I see her reflection in the face of every female it’s difficult to think I am entitled to protect myself from them.
I think throwing punches is childish and shameful. I haven’t fought since that jackass broke into my house a few years back. Before that I don’t remember if it was high school or junior high that I last threw a punch.
Austin
I used to have this issue…now I walk tall and carry a big mutha stick…male or female, if there is danger to any of myselves or those in my care…you better watch yourself, I am trained and deadly and no longer afraid of anything, not pain, not death. The only thing I am afraid of is not surviving…that’s not going to happen. Bring it if you think you can take me, I assure you I may be a pretty and nice girl, but I am a danger to anyone who threatens me or mine. I hope you can come to better grips with this worth thing…why would any person on this planet be worth more than any other? You deserve to own that internal honor, you deserve the best this world can give. someday you will believe it too…then we can start a roller derby female team and kick ass all day long! LOL Well maybe not as I am a gimp now…but I can dream. All my love, with a whole heart.
austin,
I really really sat with what you wrote and thought about it. You are of course completely right about the history of silencing and abuse women have faced. And how passive aggression comes out of that.
But to me this just has never been enough to explain the aggression of women toward other women. I have thought about this a lot because the strong women I have known have all been targeted the most viciously by other women. We have all been oppressed the same and yet the ones who speak out and stand up for themselves are the ones most undercut and abused by other women. The ones making change for all of us are ostracized and cut out by the very women whose cause they are speaking for. I’ve seen it happen over and over. There is something else going on there. I wonder if you have thoughts about it.
Wily,
Perhaps they’ve stepped outside of the dynamic and like in any family when the dynamic is broken people start acting out. They don’t know how to take it so they get aggressive. Who does she think she is? She thinks she’s so special… blah, blah, blah.
We act out in ways that are most acceptable to our society. For instance if a man began talking about his friends and spreading rumors his friends would attribute that behavior to the behavior of a woman, a bitch. If he got aggressive physically he’s a dick and they’ll get over it but they won’t attack his manhood over it.
If a woman is aggressive physically it makes the news. If she’s passive aggressive w/ out physical violence it’s just an everyday occurrence.
Passive aggression is like flying under the radar but still getting your missile to the target. We as human beings need to feel justified and vindicated so we’ll strike in whatever way we can even if it’s underhanded.
Passive aggression is an acceptable way for women to act and does not push them in the news or hold them out as different like out right violence does. Let someone break this behavior of staying in her place as catty and petty and other women don’t know what to do. I’m sure it’s not done consciously but perhaps this is the reason the “strong” women are targeted by the “weak”.
I don’t think it’s anything about our gender that makes us respond a certain way but more about our position in society as well as the established dynamics in our country of residence.
Austin